Transcript
Episode 8: Betting on Yourself: Disrupting the Norm in Dentistry with Guest Dr. Avi Patel
This is Dentistry Disrupted with Dr. Craig D. Clayton. I'm a wellness and biomedic dentist, passionate changemaker, social media thought leader, and educator on disrupting the way we approach oral healthcare. Come along with me as we journey towards a healthier and more empowered you. All right, Dr. Av, it's so great to have you here. Thanks for taking the time out of your day to be here on Dentistry Disrupted. I really admire Dr. Av. He was the first person really to reach out to us as we started this journey in social media education. He reached out to us and said, hey, I wanna help you in whatever way I can. And he's been very instrumental in the path that we've taken, so. I feel very indebted to Dr. Avi for this reason. And so I'm thrilled to have him here on the podcast. He is a disrupter and that's why I wanted him here to speak with you. So Dr. Avi, I'll let you give our audience a little introduction of yourself and background and where you are today. Yeah. Look, thanks for having me. You know, there's zero debt, I think. you guys, all I saw was you guys were putting out authentic content, trying to make a difference, trying to help people. And I was, I kind of, there were a lot of similarities, which we can kind of get into later, but I just saw you guys were genuinely putting your best foot forward and wanting to make a difference. And I just wanted to help. Um, because I know when you're starting off with anything new, there's always challenges and if there was just, you know, ways to kind of not necessarily shortcut it, but but kind of move past them quicker. I was always willing to help and I always am, but yeah, thanks for having me. A little bit about me, I guess, where can we start? Yeah, born in California, grew up in Florida, went to dental school in New York at NYU, practiced for a couple of years in the Northeast, and then came down to Austin with my wife and dog back in 2020 during the pandemic. And... You know, as a dentist starting out, I did have a lot of job turnover. And, um, when I came down to Austin was able to kind of level up as a clinician because I wanted to do more than just drill and fill cavities. I wanted to help my patients. I wanted to be a part of some type of transformation. I just, I felt like there was always like, there was something more. And I think this is where, you know, we're very aligned in that. And, um, for me, instead of, you know, I, I wanted to I wanted to, like I said, do something more in the sense where it wasn't just, um, I didn't want to feel like I was like a machine. I didn't want to, you know, I wanted to actually help my patients and I just felt like I wasn't. So that's when I learned how to do a clear liners. So most people probably know it as Invisalign and that procedure blew my mind because it was, I had never seen a, I never done a procedure where you were able to treat. an issue and also prevent future issues all at the same time without drilling on the teeth. Like it was completely mind blowing to me. And once I saw that, you know, we were able to straighten patients' teeth and get their teeth into healthier positions. Patients were flossing more. Patients were more in tune with their oral health. Patients who went through this treatment came to me and started talking to me about things that they wanted to do to improve their oral health. So that was a game changer because I went from being in a burnt out place where I didn't feel like I was making a difference to being part of, you know, hundreds of patients to transformations. And once that happened, I was then wondering why weren't more dentists doing this? Why weren't, why wasn't this procedure more common amongst our colleagues? And so then that's when I started to educate and teach, uh, fellow dentists. And I kind of was doing like a kind of consulting type. job that I had created for myself. And, um, and then to essentially market that those services, I was posting on social media. And so I was just sharing education mainly to dentists, just teaching them about this procedure, the benefits, how to talk to patients about it, what to do, what to avoid. And then that led to me then creating an actual online program because there was a lot of interest. and I couldn't do this one-on-one consulting service for at scale at that point. There was just a lot of interest. Yeah. Similar to kind of, you know, your situation to some degree, but just seeing this kind of concept of taking something that is helping people, putting it on social media, sharing it and then being able to support and help them on the backend was awesome. And then that grew and posted more on social media. the online program started to grow even more and got to the point where now I focus on content creation and building, growing my program full time. And September was able to actually retire clinically from dentistry to focus more efforts towards doing this kind of stuff online. So I don't really know what the category of job is. I just say, do this stuff online. That's amazing. That's amazing. You have created. a very powerful tool for a lot of other dentists to find more time to slow down and focus on patient care and prevention. And so what can you go a little deeper into? the, you know, the, the basically why ortho is not just there to create a pretty smile because I feel like in a lot of ways that's what orthodontics has evolved into. And I have patients that, you know, have straight pretty teeth, but then have a bite issues or, you know, jaw pain or, you know, airway issues down the road. So, uh, can you speak to that a little bit as well and how that's disrupting a, uh, maybe a generally cosmetic procedure? Absolutely. Yeah. So that's been a huge thing. So I think to kind of talk on that subject, you have to rewind a little bit and really just talk about how Invisalign started, right? So Invisalign, the most popular brand of plastic that moves teeth, they have poured in hundreds of millions of dollars into marketing, right? And they've done that for the last 15 to 20 years. So their whole thing was they were trying to educate the population, the general population you know, why on essentially like why having a straight like smile is important. And they hit it from every angle. They did talk about some oral health, but they also focused a lot on the cosmetics and I think, you know, that resonated with some people, but for a vast majority of the population, um, not that many people were actually wanting like the smile, the aesthetics, right? I think where it hit home was when they started to piece in the oral health messaging, which is what they've done as of late. And dentists, a lot of dentists were consuming the same marketing that patients were of like, Oh, clear liners, Invisalign, they straighten your teeth. It's a pretty smile. That's what everybody wants, but you know, that wasn't the case. And so, you know, digging into the oral health aspect, the reason why it's so important is because when your teeth are not in a healthy position, whether they are crowded, they're spacing, they're taking excess force. that leads to problems. And I love using the analogy of just comparing it to a car. Like you've got your four tires, right? You've got your four tires. And if all your tires are balanced, you know, and you drive, it doesn't matter if it's rocky surface, flat road, you're gonna get like this even kind of wear that happens throughout the tires and they're gonna last much longer. Now, let's say some of those tires are not balanced. which means your front left tire may be taking on more of the road than the, than the front right. And same thing in the back. Those tires are going to wear down at an uneven pace, which then can affect other parts of the car. Right. Um, and so when you take that and compare it to your mouth, it's the same thing. If certain teeth like your back teeth, or rather, if your front teeth are taking a lot of the force, you know, that is going to have an uneven kind of wear longterm on your teeth, which can cause teeth to break. can cause sensitivity, can cause gum problems, and all that stuff which then leads to more procedures being done where when you tie in that preventative aspect of having straight teeth, you actually can balance everything out regardless of your age, so that way down the line, your teeth are actually being used the way they are supposed to. Okay. That's a great analogy. I like that. Something that's, you know, good to understand uh, other, other aspects of the vehicle. And I also stopped after I stopped after that, cause I don't really know that much about cars, so I wasn't going to get into transmission and all that stuff. I just kind of kept it right there. No, I think that's very appropriate. Very appropriate. I love that. And something that I've really enjoyed learning more about you. And this is something we connect on a very deep level about is. the disruption that needs to occur in the dental industry at large. And so I know you spoke a little bit about your experience in a more corporate situation as far as the grind, the work, the patient load, all of that. What else have you seen? I mean, one of your most viral reels, if I'm correct, is talking about that toxic... environment that's being passed down through generations of not, you know, of not sharing essentially the secret sauce sharing the education of this is how you do this and this is how you adapt and here's how this evolution, you know, will occur throughout your career and instead of it's, you know, we're thrown into this environment that it is that is very, very difficult to adapt to and that we're not adequately prepared for. So You know, what, how, what was your journey? Like how, you know, give us some more details on how that started and then how it evolves to where you are and then what you're, what you would like to see and your active part in disrupting this problem in the future, which obviously impacts patients in a very complete way, of course, because they are the people that are the beneficiaries that change in philosophy. Yeah. So I think the first part of that is right. The toxicity in dentistry and kind of why certain things are being gate-capped. And you know, my perspective, which I think resonates with a lot of people, a lot of other dentists that have gone through it is it's almost as if dentists traditionally like when they find success or they find things that work, they're not like, so willing to share it with colleagues. right, which I think is very different from a lot of other industries that I've seen. Um, and they almost kind of just, it's like, yeah, like you said, they find the secret sauce, they figure it out, they do it, they have their success and then they just like, won't share it with anybody else and especially the next generation. Um, so it's like, that's why you get a, an industry like that happens time and time again, then what ends up happening is the industry doesn't move forward. because each next generation is starting from ground zero, right? They're starting from the problems. Like every industry has problems. Every industry has, um, things that they have to overcome. And I think in dentistry, more often than not, you're getting people who are not willing to share that or not willing to mentor. And you know, there's a bunch of variables that can go into it, but at the end of the day, like every dentist can tell you when they graduate dental school, they, don't feel necessarily fully equipped to do everything. And I just think that's just the nature of how schooling in dentistry works, which is its own topic. But you come out knowing, like for everyone that's not a dentist, right? It's like, just imagine you come out, you kind of know enough to like put one foot forward, right? You don't know enough to like jog or run or sprint. You just know how to like kind of just put the first foot forward and you're trying to learn how to walk. Right. You're trying to learn how to walk. You're trying to learn the basics. Because surprisingly dental school actually doesn't teach you much of that or they do, but it's, it's not as effective. So it's, it's very much like cool. And every older dentist will say, find a mentor, find a mentor, find someone you can learn from. And so that's what you do. That's what I did. I came out and I was looking for a mentor and you know, people will promise mentorship when you take certain jobs, but they don't always deliver on that because they're busy. They have schedules, they have patients, they have things, they are running a business as well. So it's very rare to find a genuine mentor who in dentistry that I found that is like actually trying to help you succeed because here's the other thing, even if you find like a, like a, let's say a dental associate, brand new grad comes out, they find an owner who's willing to teach them and they teach them. Uh, what ends up happening that I've seen is, is that owner who's willing to mentor them. It's like almost like as of a certain point where that associate starts to grow and they start to actually become a better dentist and maybe they start, you know, having more success than the owner from just like the number of procedures that are doing or whatever the variable is that they're measuring. Um, then some owners, their, their egos, I think kind of don't like that. They don't like that. They're not the main star. of the play or whatever you want to call it. And then they'll start to sabotage them. They will start to take patients from them. They will start to take bigger procedures from them, which doesn't make sense at all because from a strictly business perspective, like obviously there's just, there's the one aspect of like continuity of care for patients. Like patients should be seeing the same provider, or at least if there's a change in provider, there should just be some alignment there. But what I've seen is like, then you transition over to the business side of dentistry where it's like, if you're an owner, you make a percentage off of your associate, right? So it's like from a strictly business perspective, like you should want that associate to be doing as much as they can to help your patients in the practice, because the busier they are, the better it is for the practice from, you know, even from, especially from a financial perspective. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So now tying this into my job history, like I've been in practices where I've had a bunch of situations. One practice mentorship was promised, but when the time came where I started working there, the owner wasn't actually around to mentor. He wanted me to basically just work essentially and cover for him, which is fine. I think there, that is a totally acceptable thing. But when mentorship is promised and it's not given, it's actually, you know, it's a challenge, right? Um, I've had offices where they say they're very busy, right? And a lot of dentists, I don't know if people know this, but you know, dentists for the most part are being paid essentially on commission, right? Like whatever procedures they do, they are walking home with a percentage of that. They're not walking away with the full fee, right? So if a procedure is a thousand dollars, the dentist does not get all thousand of those dollars. Like it's, it's actually just a percentage of that. And. Um, and so there's right, the dentist also has bills to pay like this, their student debt. There's just other bills. Um, so, you know, from that you, when you're young and you're starting out, you're not necessarily just chasing the money. You are actually trying to learn. You were trying to help patients. You were trying to do things that, you know, are fulfilling because that's what draws us all into the procedure and you trust that the finances will take care of themselves and the money will come. Because. you know, at the end of the day, you want to help as many people. And when you do that, it just the way the universe works, that tends to come back around, right? Uh, in different ways. Yes. Right. So you're not really stressed about the money, but then what happens is, is then when you go work at a practice and they say they're very busy and they say there's a lot of patients for you to see, but then you actually get there. And there's, they're really not that busy and you're kind of sitting around. Um, your bills are still rolling. You still have to make payments there. Um, And so it just, it puts, it puts dentists in a, in a sticky situation. And so I've been in those situations and it's like, I always kind of stayed to my moral compass and ethics and, and I never overdiagnosed or over-treated just for the sake of the money. Um, but that can then lead you to being in a practice where you're not busy and then the owners will let you go. Right. So, and then the reason why I'm bringing this stuff up, right, is just because to show you that like, when you start off, there are challenges that you're trying to navigate. And you're trying to navigate all this while still learning how to clinically be better, right? Cause like clinically, when I came out, it was not, you're not, you're just not that, um, well versed. So, you know, this is where, and then the just to kind of wrap that up in terms of just the generational stuff, it's like, you only know what you're exposed to, right? So like if you work for these dentists who are doing outdated, methods and they're not actually staying up to date with, uh, procedures or information. Um, you know, for example, I know you, you practice, the way you practice is very much, you know, wellness forward. Uh, you're looking at more than just the tooth. And that is something that I feel like people, patients think they're dentists, all dentists think like that, but the reality is that's probably less than, I don't know, 10%. Yeah. Like, and so it's like, but for me as a young dentist, like I didn't know who I could learn to do that kind of stuff from. Because to me, the only person I could really learn from was the doctor that I worked for. There weren't that many accessible programs out there or just accessible information, which is why nowadays with social media and people like yourself, like I learned a lot from you. Like there's stuff that you talk about where I'm just like, Oh, wow. Like, I guess that's how you can prevent cavities. Like, it's crazy. Like everybody thinks that dentists know that, but it's like to a certain degree we do, but the level of detail that you do and the fact that you just share it and it's consumable, like, yeah, I'm going to listen to you and share that. You know what I mean with other people? Because they don't like go into that level of detail in dental school. Like that's just the facts. Yeah. And you just explained so wonderfully why Let's say, let me back up a little bit. The question that I am asked probably most frequently besides what product should I use is, why can't I find a dentist that practices this way? Or why do more dentists not practice this way? And then that gets translated into the assumption that dentists are greedy and money hungry and not trustworthy. And so I also try to preach, I try, really hard to preach and clarify, no, most dentists, the vast majority have very good intentions and want what is best for their patients. But as you just so wonderfully explained, we get into this cycle where that information isn't passed on, the prevention isn't incentivized. And I use the example of, you know, in dental school, I had one class on the study of cavities. And even then the takeaway was... eat less sugar, better oral hygiene, use high strength fluoride if you're an at risk patient. That's like the takeaway. It's a three credit hour course and 200, 300 plus credit hours over four years. Yet we spend four years learning how to prepare teeth for crowns and do fillings and all the reactionary dentistry. It's crazy because that same class, that same class, I remember taking it and afterwards I was like... I already knew that. Like, I was just kind of like, I thought I was going to learn something that I didn't know. I wasn't a dentist before, but it's like, okay, like, that's it. Like, that's, that's all we got. Yeah. It's wild. And so, you know, it's such a beautiful explanation of, you know, it's not the dentist fault. It's, it's the, this generational cycle that's holds. us back in, you know, and the, like you said, the lack of mentorship, but really just the general lack of knowledge. That's a, and also lack of just sharing the knowledge too. Yeah. I'm not going to competitive mindset. I don't want to, I don't want to excuse all dentists. Like dentists are definitely, they're at fault to a certain degree, right? Some of it there, it's lack of education. The other is just like the willingness to share. And they, and also like when new ideas are brought forward, um, that challenge conventional thinking. they're like almost shut down and like just completely dragged throughout, right? Like I had not even considered, no, like an on layer and in, like, I worked with the dentist who had 20 years of experience and he's like, Oh, well they're going to break anyway. Like he's like, it's just going to be a crown. You might as well put the crown on now. And like as a younger dentist who had no exposure to like other sources of information, you kind of just take it as truth because it's like, you know, like I remember doing it in dental school, like we did practice on lays and in lays, but the number of onlays and inlays that I practiced in dental school versus the number of crowns that I practiced night and day, I could, I was in the, put it this way. I was spending time outside of our dedicated lab time practicing crowns. I don't think I ever did that for an inlay or an onlay because it was like one time they showed you how to do it. You kind of did it. You got graded on it, but it was like kind of wishy washy and like, that's it. But the crown. Oh my gosh, like, yeah, I mean, even sleep over that. We're not tested on inlays and onlays for our, you know, hands on exams. And I remember spending so little time on inlays and onlays, like you just said, as well as even being told by attending clinicians and teachers that, you know, crowns are paid for by insurance onlays and inlays are paid for by insurance. Therefore patients are. are going to want the crowns anyways, and you should do crowns because, let me turn my camera back on, I'll finish this up, but you're going to do crowns anyways because patients won't want to pay for it. So it's like we were taught to not give patients the more conservative treatment option, and we were taught that insurance then dictates treatment. And it's just that started in dental school. I mean, it's like if you're the most vulnerable, that's when you're the most vulnerable It was like dental insurance is essentially driving the Influencing the curriculum were taught in dental school. Like how messed up is that? Mm-hmm Then it basically right it's like it's setting you up to fail because then when you come out You have to like you have to like challenge the norm which is not normal for most people, right? And like dentists also as personality types, like a lot of dentists are like people become like, I mean me and you were alike and we're also very different from our colleagues, but like most dentists are not out here trying to change the game. That's not why they chose to be dentists. Like a lot of them chose the dentistry for stability, help some people make some good money and just like live their life. Like that's. pretty much like I've, I've had thousands of people, people on webinars, thousands of dentists on webinars. And I've asked the question, what brought you in? And everyone's like, everyone's saying the same thing, um, which isn't that hard to believe, but like, now you've got them pretty much behind the eight ball with this limited mindset, limited, um, thinking pattern of how to actually practice, right? Dentistry. which is catered to the insurance, everything like it's, and that's the thing is like, they'll tell you all the good stuff. And then they're like, but do it this way, right? They're like, yeah, like you should be conservative. Like they make you terrified to cut teeth. But then, but then when they do that, it's like, then they're like, oh yeah, but do these procedures because insurance will pay for it. Um, and it blew my mind also, cause when I first started working at some of the practices, I knew I was just like, we should be prioritizing what the patients need. Like I just kind of knew that in my core, cause I did have some professors that kind of told me that. And they're like, you know, don't give into insurance in that way, like do what's best for the patient, do what's best for the patient. But then some of the practices I worked at, like they ran the clinic catered to the insurance. Like they wouldn't do the treatment until they got like pre-authorization from the insurance. And they just completely like structured their business around that. And they structured their business around maximizing the insurance. So then it's just like. If that's your, again, it comes back to like, this is where young dentists are learning from. So you just learn these practices, these older practices, and then like you go on and you have to really, really challenge the norm because that's how the norm is these days. Um, and then you do that and it's tough because if you don't take insurance and you actually, you know, do, you do dentistry the right way, right? You do dentistry where you're actually prioritizing the patient's health. you're probably not going to make a lot of money in the beginning. And like that can terrify people. And so I think what a lot of dentists do is they end up taking the insurance when they start their practices because they want patient flow. They tell themselves that they will treat the patient with the best interest. But then I genuinely think what happens is when patients walk in the door and they've got these like discount, then they, you know, then you get these discounted fees, which that's just the contract of insurance. Now they cater to that and then they'll try to do all these extra things to make up the money that they should be charging. Well, when in fact, if they just didn't take the insurance and provided quality care from the beginning, yeah, you're seeing less people, but everybody wins because you're going to attract the people who are willing to pay for your services. You are going to help the people who value it, right? And then you are going to walk away making what you feel you should and deserve. And I think, that's how it should be because you don't need to, like, that's the thing is like dentists feel like they need volume. They feel like they need to see everyone under the sun, but that's just not the case. Like every patient is not for every dentist. And I'm not saying like insurance needs to be eradicated. There's a place for it. Right. There's a, like there, there's an audience, right? There are people, there are human beings that don't really value their oral care more than just getting a couple cleanings. Right. And that's it. And that's fine. And there's dent, there are dentists for you. My thing, and I believe your thing too, is like, if more general dentists would just start to almost bet on themselves and believe, I think if they just believe in themselves more and they take this risk of going against the norm, um, they can provide the dentistry that they actually want to do. Like you asked so many dentists out there and a lot of them, I bet we'll tell you that they're not actually practicing dentistry the way that they had imagined or the way that they truly believe they should be practicing. And so that is what adds up because when times get tough and things get stressful and you're not even doing something that you genuinely enjoy doing, like that's why so many dentists burn out. And that's why you have dentists who, you know, that's why the suicide rate is so high. And it's just because you're, you're doing so many things that actually aren't aligned to you. And it's like, you've gone so far past what actually got you into the field. And this is just a systemic problem. that's in the field. Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. 100%, it's such a problem and this is, I mean, again, this is why the field is so hard to change. And there's a lot of scarcity mindset of because of this insurance and all these different factors and it's scary to challenge everything that we've been taught that it's very hard to change this field. So I look forward to working. with passionate people like yourself, and I'm sure we will continue to find more and help to drive this revolution through education and through helping dentists see that there is a way to create a win-win situation and practice dentistry that's more conservative, comprehensive, holistic, all the while being able to essentially focus on preventative also and it's still be able to keep the business the doors open the business afloat even without doing all the technical procedures. So but I wish we could I wish we could just keep speaking for another 30 minutes. But I've got to wrap up and run off to an appointment unfortunately, but I wanted to Before we close, I want you to tell our audience where they can learn more from you, especially those doctors that are listening to this. Yeah. Easiest way is to follow me on Instagram. My handle is doctor.Ovi. And yeah, I also have a YouTube channel. Same thing, Dr.Ovi spelled out. And yeah, if you have any questions. shoot me a DM, I respond to everybody. I mean, I try to, but I will get to your message. And yeah, I love having conversations like these, man. I really appreciate you having me on. Oh, it's been great. And let me tell you, Dr. Avi's content is stellar. It just, it looks good. His energy is always on point. It's inspiring. I can't help but to just feel motivated and ready to tackle the next problem. after watching your videos. So thanks for bringing that energy and that passion consistently. That means a lot. Yeah, I definitely pour a lot of passion into them. So to hear that they're being well received, it means a lot. And again, your guys' content is amazing. I think you guys are doing such a good job educating the masses. And it's just super cool to see you guys grow and impact so many people at different levels. It's awesome. And I knew you guys, I'm not going to say I told you so, but I told you so. Like I knew this was going to happen. I knew you guys had absolute fire in your hands and I could see your passion. Um, and I just knew that if you guys stayed consistent, like you would be able to help so many people. And it's just really cool to see where you guys are at. And in my opinion, like, you know, I know you guys are just getting started, but it's, it's really cool to see. Thank you so much. And I know, I mean, Likewise, I know that you're just getting started and that you've got a long term vision that's outside of the clear liner education field. So I'm really excited to watch you continue to grow and morph. So thank you again, Dr. Avi for taking the time to be here and chat. And I hope that we can have you on again in the future and we can to have the opportunity to continue this conversation. Absolutely. Thanks for having me again, man.
