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This is Dentistry Disrupted with Dr. Craig D. Clayton. I'm a wellness and biomedic dentist, passionate change maker, social media thought leader, and educator on disrupting the way we approach oral health care. Come along with me as we journey towards a healthier and more empowered you. Today I am very excited to have on our podcast, Lindsay Ip. She and her husband, Dr. Vincent Ip are the creators of VO2 Tape. And today we want to focus on her story, which is super interesting. Um, and that explains the background of why VO2 Tape exists. And it was created out of a need to help their son that was really struggling with his own airway issues from a very young age. And so we're going to talk about their family story. And how that naturally led to looking for better resources, better tools for them to be able to help their son breathe through his nose and recover from, from his airway struggles. So I'm so excited to have Lindsay with me today. I can't wait to hear more about her story and to share her story with all of you. And so Lindsay, just in advance, thank you so much for being here with me and for being willing to really open up and share your story, because I know it will resonate with so many people. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. It's been very exciting. And this is our first time meeting face to face, albeit through the internet. Well, I mean, I have to say, I was really intrigued by your practice because I think out of all of the dentists that I see on social media and kind of out there in this space with us, your practice and how you practice. really has aligned the most with our ideology and how we practice with our patients. And so, love what you're doing and how much you're educating people, it's so important. And the more people we can help, the better. So I just appreciate you for being out there and doing what you're doing. I know it's tough work. Thank you. It is, it's truly my passion, struggling. But enough of me talking, I wanna get into your story. So. Tell me at the roots of VO2 tape, you know, at the roots of every great disruptive product and idea and mission, there's always a story. So let's, let's rewind back to, I believe you said your son was three. Will you, will you tell me what that journey looks like for you? What it felt like? What you, what you were looking for, where you found your answers? I'll, you know, I'll, let's start there. Yeah. So when our son was three, which was almost 10 years ago, we started noticing him snoring at night, having an open mouth a lot, messy eating, things like this that we were just like, didn't seem normal. Of course, my husband's a dentist, so he was looking at it from that lens and I was looking at it from a mother's lens, which are two different things, but. Yeah. It really sent us down this rabbit hole of like, we knew snoring was bad, we knew the open mouth was just unsightly, and obviously the messy eating and all of that. So we started down the rabbit hole of, you know, trying to figure out what this was, and at age three, he had a sleep test and was diagnosed with sleep apnea, which we were. Oh my gosh. just shocked about because we didn't even know, of course we know what sleep apnea is and we've heard about sleep apnea and my husband's seen it in his practice over the years, but we didn't realize that it could be identified at such a young age. And so I think as parents, we were like, what is anything and everything we can do to help him? And obviously being in the medical field, we have a little more access to care than most people, so. You know, my husband really went down this journey of taking every continuing education class he could, doing every kind of perceptorship and extra training to learn everything he could to see what we could do while our, our sons, you know, was still developing to see if we could really kind of change the course of his life. And I'm happy to report that we were able to do that because we were able to, you know, do some early intervention things. to help his, you know, how he grew. So that's really where we started. And through that process, my husband in almost every course kept coming across mouth taping. And it was something that we were interested in, but we weren't really sure. I think like many people are like, mouth taping, why would I tape my mouth at night? And at the time, and this was, you know, years and years ago, there was only one mouth tape on the market and it was a full coverage mouth tape. We weren't comfortable, obviously, fully taping our son's mouth. And this is now when he's four or five, six years old, because we had gone down the line a little bit at this point. So we decided to come up with our own product that we felt better about giving to patients and using on our children and using ourselves. And so that's really how the tape was born. We really kind of never intended for it to be an actual product, like a worldwide product, we thought, oh, we'll just use it with our patients so we can help them. But what we found in this process is that so few providers are actually talking about airway and are looking for markers in airway or doing the assessments. And so we found that access to care is just almost nonexistent in this field. So what we wanted to do with the tape is it's a really low cost and small effective tool that can really help change the course of your airway journey. And really we don't believe, we will never tell you that this tape is going to cure you from all the things. That's not what it's for. It's simply a tool. And in our case, like we hope that by using this tool and being able to educate with it, it'll open people's eyes a little bit to the journey and make them seek out a provider to assess them further or their children further to get maybe in an appliance or expansion or something, but at least it's a small step. So what led you to design? What was the process of designing? Back when you initially designed it, there was only full coverage mouth tape. There weren't a lot of options. This was a newer idea. Where did it start? Where did you first learn that mouth taping could be a safe tool to use in addition to other treatment to resolve the issue? So I would say that started in my husband's training and his like extra training to become. sort of an expert in this airway field. A lot of the pioneers in the field that he was going to at Spear courses and University of California, where he did his mini residency, they were talking about mouth tape in their lectures. What we found is a lot of them were talking about using a small piece of tape, like the size of a postage on their lips, which we tried at home. And that was obviously better than the full coverage mouth tape. But what we realized is, or what I realized is, I wanted something that was a little more stable. So that's why ours can be worn in an I shape or an H shape, but in the I shape, it had a little more stability with having content on the top of your lip and the bottom of your lip, which in my opinion, gives the jaw more stability than just like the single piece of tape on your lips. So that's kind of where we started with the eye shape. And then the H, it can go either way because the H shape is great with men with facial hair. There's more contact on the lips. So we say it's uniquely designed to fit all faces. You know, we use the golden proportions, which my husband has been using in aesthetic dentistry for a long time, to come up with the measurements of it. And it uniquely fits, you know, kids all the way to adults. We have... users that are 5 to 95. In my practice, I find that, you know, some people that are severe are not candidates. It'll be people listening to this. They will want to go and try this. What are some red flags where you would say, let's pause, let's hold off, where Dr. Vincent would say, we need to do a couple things first before this is an option. There was that video that went viral of a severe, severe sleep apnea patient. using mouth tape and he's like struggling to breathe and it was supposed to be comedic. But those of us that are in this space are like, oh my gosh, this is scary. Where would you say just, I know there's just a few considerations where you say, hey, let's hold off and here's what Dr. Vincent recommends before we start implementing this tool. So one thing is- Because I think that's important to know. Yes, for sure. And you know, one thing is we created our tape to be non full coverage for a reason. And that's because I think we both think that it's very important to always have an oxygen pathway, no matter what. There could always be an aspiration risk at night, like you just never know. And so our tape does have that oxygen pathway, just in case. You can also drink. You can also drink out of a straw at night, which is really nice for the people that love their sips of water in the night. But anyway, you should always, if you can't breathe through your nose on a regular day, then you probably need to be seen by an airway dentist, an ENT, just to get the first scans of what is going on there that's hindering this. We also tell people that if they're nervous about it or they're not unsure about it to wear it during the day while they're watching TV or answering emails, you should always do like that three minute test to make sure that you can breathe while you have it on. It also gets your brain kind of a little used to having it on and realizing that like, oh, I can still breathe with this on, it's fine. But yeah, if you're not being able to breathe through your nose at all, then we definitely recommend seeing a medical provider first before trying. And then also if you're nervous about it, do that three minute test during the day. And we also always recommend that with children. Anyone ages five to 10-ish, we always recommend that you personally watch them tape during the day so that you know and they know that this is safe. I had one patient in particular, it was a new patient and had a history of snoring and mouth breathing. allergies, asthma, and I checked in with him during this new patient exam and said, how's that going? You know, is this something you're still struggling with? I want to be able to get you the resources to get you better. And he said, oh, I actually started mouth taping about a year ago. It was my, you know, my girlfriend taught me about it and she started doing it. So I started doing it. And he said, I rarely get seasonal allergies anymore. You know, I don't struggle with congestion, asthma, seasonal allergies. I sleep better. I don't snore. And he's like, it's amazing. And I've seen that a couple times now as we get further into this journey, how big of a change this simple tool can be. And I'm sure you've seen that. How long have you been experimenting with the Mouth Tape and then your official end product? So, I mean, we've been experiencing with Mouth Tape for about 10 years. Our official product has been out there in the marketplace for about two and a half. and I get emails every single day of somebody that said, I was sleep divorced and now we're not because we can sleep in the same room, your product saved my marriage, I don't snore anymore, I don't have allergies. I've had pregnant women email us that it's gotten rid of morning sickness. I mean, the stories are really unbelievable and sometimes I feel like, oh my God, this is so surreal because It's so simple. It's such a simple, low cost and effective way. And I think, you know, we are in the process of doing some clinical trials and some testing to really show the effects, but I mean, we have people say it lowers their blood pressure. And I really wanna point out that your nose is the natural filter of your body. So your nose is what is filtering the air that you breathe and you're supposed to breathe through your nose. and eat with your mouth. So if you are using your nose to breathe every day, primarily using your nose, it really is proven that you will get less sick. You should have less allergies because your nose is doing that hard work for you the way it's supposed to. So, I mean, we do see this anecdotal evidence all the time every day. And we look forward to having real clinical, you know, knowledge soon, but it is really amazing. that if you let your body do what it's meant to do, what can happen? It's like, it's a pretty natural thing. This is a drug-free natural thing. Yeah. And you know, sometimes anecdotal, well, not sometimes. In general, in the scientific world, anecdotal evidence is considered weak, but it's interesting because it shouldn't be. And I think... There are some things like anecdotal evidence of I use this magic product and now, you know, it healed my cavities. Like that's something where you really have to have a clinician diagnose that. Like that can't be self-diagnosed. That's some, you know, it's just impossible because it's a disease that's painless until it's progressed real far. But I learned from Dr. Zaghi, you know, as they started their clinical trials with functional tongue releases and with other airway treatments that. You know, it started with anecdotes, but you know, as they grew hundreds and hundreds of, of anecdotal stories, it's like, this is when it starts to become pretty significant. And so that, that will be neat to have published clinical trials, but the evidence from users, you know, that, that had used a, I like to call it a gentle or non-invasive mouth tape. It's, it's. startling and reinforces that point that you were talking about that just simply breathing through the nose significantly impacts the body and we know from clinical trials of at least nasal breathing in which we need more of but That it lowers systemic inflammation. So as you mentioned, you know blood pressure lowering the blood pressure Because that system is having to work less hard. I want to go back to your initial journey, so messy eating, mouth breathing. What, what were some of the other symptoms that really were setting off the alarms before you even did the sleep apnea test? Was there bedwetting? Was there behavioral challenges? Were there challenges with textures and sensory overwhelm? Can you tell me a little bit more about that, especially so mothers can yeah. Understand like what to look for at home if they have concerns. Totally. So we did have bedwetting and also like some sensory, um, you know, I don't want to say issues, but sensory, maybe sensitivities. Um, and then definitely the open mouth at night and the snoring, um, it being our first child, you know, he is a boy and he was very high, he's very high energy, he still is. So I don't know if I would say that necessarily behavioral issues, because at that point, it's like we didn't really know what we didn't know about having other kids too. Now we have three kids, so. But yeah, I mean, what we are seeing is we're seeing children that are having these ADHD symptoms that mimic sleep disorder symptoms. I think our society is so ready to be like, oh, they're ADD or they're ADHD and let's put them on medication and let's because that's just like what the doctors are trained to do. But when I hear symptoms of ADD and ADHD and like the hyperactivity and the, you know, like I'm immediately like, oh my gosh, have you had a sleep to sleep to sleep study? And then people look at me like I'm crazy. And I'm just like, if you go and just do a tiny bit of research on this, the symptoms mimic so much. And so that's what we were really seeing. Instead of, it was like my mom gut was telling me, he's not ADD, he's got like something else going on, but I couldn't pinpoint it. And then once we just started digging, we found this and yeah, sleep apnea. And who did you go for? for that sleep study initially. Like what did your process look like of coming to a diagnosis because it sounds like you and your husband then as you had that hunch and you both listened to that instinct, where did you first turn to be able to get some answers and get that sleep study and that really jump started? We first turned to our pediatrician who we love but is a little more old school and hadn't start seeing these kind of similarities yet. But he did refer us to an ENT and at that point we went to the ENT. Another thing, if I go back, is our son had really enlarged tonsils, which is another thing that my husband sees a lot. He looks in someone's mouth and he's just like, oh my gosh, of course you can't breathe. Your tonsils are almost touching. He had really enlarged tonsils. And that's where my wife is at. Yeah. Liza has huge tonsils and she's 30 and... she didn't have them out. They've always been big and she has trouble breathing when she's sick and she just wasn't sick enough as a kid so they didn't intervene and take them out. Yeah, so we really we went to the ENT and we really pushed to have his tonsils removed because at that point we thought that was going to be what would change his life but really he needed shut his mouth and he needed expansion. But that was kind of the first step. And then while we were in this process, my husband was really digging in down the whole airway path. And that's when he kind of realized like, he's on the fringe, you know, this is 10 years ago. Like we couldn't find an ENT in town that would like take this on seriously. Yeah, they'd take the tonsils out, but they weren't like, this is an airway issue. This is just like. you know, take the tonsils out and you're off. So, I mean, really the sleep testing then started from my husband. He bought his own watch pad. And then from there, he's been sleep testing since. And we have all kinds of sleep testing devices. As you Dennis, you Dennis love to, you know, get all the gadgets. Yeah. And that's what I use in the watch. I use the watch pad right now for patients. Yeah. And I use that for patients currently because it's such a simple system. Is that what you used on your son initially? We did use that on him initially. We also used another one that I can't remember the name but it went around his chest. But yeah, we did those two initially. Now with patients, we do where they do it in their own home. The sleep test company sends it to them because we just. find it's just a much easier process for us. We're testing, I would say, my husband's testing about 50% of patients are coming in and he's doing the EpiWorth sleepiness scale on their new patient intake forms. And then from there is, you know, kind of seeing the red flags and going down that track if they want to. And I think that's something that we'll link in our show notes is the EpWorth sleepiness. scale because, you know, while we can't diagnose, of course, over podcasts or social media, we can provide resources to listeners, the followers, to be able to at least start to raise, you know, identify red flags of, you know, is this an issue? Do I need to get help? I haven't used one personally, but if you have, have you ever used an Aura ring or any sleep tracking device like that? Have you found that it's, it's helpful or just doesn't? quite provide the information to be significant enough. So I do not wear one, my husband does not wear one. My husband doesn't believe that the technology is quite there yet to be. Diagnostic's not the word, but you know, him to really look at it and see major markers that he believes, he thinks the technology will be there very soon. But anecdotally, we have. We have patients and customers that send us their whoop scores and their aura ring scores all the time that show this really better sleep with the mouth tape on, this deeper, more restorative sleep. So I think that's all coming. And I think those technologies are getting really good, really fast. And I think they're great. I mean, it's... You know, it doesn't replace a sleep test, but I think it definitely can show you like some things that might need to be worked on or maybe you need to look into getting a sleep test. So we are all for those wearables because again, it's that access to care that those little you know, things that are telling you that you might need help somewhere. And the more of that, the better, I think. And what was the turning point in your son's journey in which you started to see that, you know, bedwetting went away, closed mouth posture, sleeping better, eating better, what seemed to be the turning point at which you could relax a little bit and feel like, okay, we're doing better, he's on the right track? I mean, really, expansion and mouth tape, like really changed his life. It changed the course of his growth completely. I mean, they say anybody under the age of 12, 13, your jaw and your facial bone structure is still developing. So if you can get that early intervention before those ages, it can be life-changing. I mean, essentially, we grew him out of having sleep apnea. So now when he tests, he no longer has it, which is crazy. I mean, that's... amazing. We're very passionate about early intervention because it can really change the course of a child's life. And then if we think about it from like, you know, a medical expense later in life and all of those things, I mean, if you are able to early intervene when they're young and change the course of their life, then, you know, they won't have to deal with it when they're older. And we won't be playing this kind of catch up game like we are with so many adults that are getting horrible sleep and... barely surviving because, you know, nobody knew what nobody knew back then. It's not anyone's fault. It's just that once we know better, we can do better. So it's kind of why we're all out here trying to preach the good word about nasal breathing. Yeah, and it's amazing how you're exactly right. It's a common denominator in cavities, increased cavity risk, in gum inflammation, which then plays into a risk of. chronic illnesses like diabetes, heart disease, you know, any forms. So atherosclerosis, strokes, heart attacks, uh, and so many other things. And which then we see the same thing with, with mouth breathing. I love pointing that out for anybody listening is that it is a multifactorial issue and just this simple thing affects so many other aspects of our health that you're exactly right. compound as we age. It just puts us at higher risk of being unhealthy later in our life and having more chronic illnesses and living shorter lives and less active lives because we get burdened down by these illnesses and they take a toll on our body. Totally. Over the long run. And have you found, are there other practitioners that you've added to your care team? that you really rely heavily on to collaborate with this care? Totally, I mean, myofunctional therapists for sure, you do tongue ties and expansion work with, and I think definitely if you're treating tongue ties, a myofunctional therapist needs to be involved for those before and after exercises. So that's something we've really come to know about that like, you know, we didn't, barely even exist five years ago, really. So that for sure. And then of course we found more ENTs and sleep medical doctors that are definitely now getting on board with early identification and or just acknowledging it all in adults. So we've now found over the past probably five years more people that are open to this, which is great. because it means it's being talked about more. But it's taken some time to find good partners that are like, this isn't crazy. There's something to this. I'm sure that's so relieving for parents to hear and to hear that this is something not normal, but also something that is treatable. Because yeah, when we miss that growth opportunity, as you said, grew your... sun out of sleep disorder breathing, which is such, such a unique way of explaining it. When people transition to just teenage years and we miss that growth opportunity, now the treatment to resolve at least the anatomy that's negatively affecting or contributing to sleep disorder breathing. Now to resolve that is, is very difficult is adult expansion is difficult to do non-surgically. especially if we need to expand someone 10 millimeters. Right. And then we're looking at surgery after we exhaust all of our other options and hopefully get improvements with myofunctional therapy and sleep devices and other treatment modalities. But ultimately some people, they... They have to get a CPAP to help them breathe better, or they have to get surgery in those extreme cases, which is heartbreaking, and no one wants to go through that. Yeah, and I mean, just to kind of go back to the initial thought of the whole access to care thing, is like, you know, what we've realized the most in this journey of going down this path and treating people with airway disorders is that it's just... cost prohibitive to some people to go to treat with an appliance or a surgery, you know not only the cost the time everything and we understand that and so we were kind of like what can we do that would make a you know a big difference but can reach a lot of people that can be affordable to people and that can just kind of start them down the path of thinking about what would be best for their health and. And nasal breathing was kind of like what we landed on was the number one thing that we felt could touch the most people. And so that's why we the VO2 like we just created as a gentle mouth trainer so that can help people breathe better and live better. I love that. So this has been just this has been wonderful to connect with you and talk about this and the importance of nasal breathing and the the big difference a simple tool such as VO2 tape can make. So to finish up, what would you say are the top three symptoms to look for? I would say definitely snoring is number one. Snoring is never normal, it's never cute. And I'm, you know, we see it all the time and so many people struggle with it, but that's number one. If you're snoring or your partner is snoring. there's something deeper going on for sure. I would say number two, that open mouth posture. It's like once you hear about it, we were talking about this before, once you know about it and hear about it and learn about it, you can't unsee it. And I have trouble walking through my children's elementary school because I just see a bunch of kids with open mouths and I just wanna tape them shut. No, not really, but I just wanna help them, you know, get to a point where they're not so focusing on breathing through your nose during the day, like really being cognizant of it. you know, don't even need tape for that, but just realizing that. Yeah. Okay. And then number three, I think would be just, you know, restless sleep or not feeling like you got rest when you woke up, just feeling like just constantly tired. That's not normal. So when you wake up, especially after getting seven hours of sleep, you should feel rested and not feel tired. I know that. And then... In addition to using the mouth tape to help correct that bad habit of an open mouth posture, what would you say are the next steps? So definitely seek out an airway-centric dentist, like a dentist like my husband Dr. Ipp or Dr. Clayton. Do your research and find one that has experience in treating airway disorders. It might not be the only stop on your journey, but it's definitely a good start. So seeking out a functional provider, whether that be a dentist or a medical, functional providers are really just going to try to look for that root cause of what's starting, whatever issue it is that you're seeing. Thank you so much. Those are great actionable items to walk away with today to be able to start, you know, for a person to start their airway journey and start to identify these issues and their family members at home. So This has been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast and I'm grateful for such an innovative product as VO2Tape is, as well as that you have done the due diligence of testing to make sure it's a safe adhesive that, you know, it's safe to use, especially under the nose. So thank you for creating a research evidence-backed product that is, is verified to be safe to use and it's. It's an awesome product, it's all I recommend to patients because I do believe that there's not a better one on the market as far as being minimally invasive and safe to use and effective. So I'm grateful to innovators like yourself and Dr. Vincent in taking the initiative to create a better tool to help people achieve whole body wellness. Yes. And thank you. We're thankful for you for helping to educate because as we all know, it takes a village, you know, whether it be in your family or work or whatever. Like we truly believe in that community and village. So really appreciate you and Eliza because I know personally what it's like to be a dentist, wife and business partner. So, yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. You are welcome. Well, we will link in. the show notes where you can get VO2 tape and it's an awesome resource. So go check it out. Go try it, you know, go order some, try it out at home. And it's a, yeah, it's a great option. Well, thank you, Lindsay, for being here with me today. And hopefully we'll talk with you soon. Yeah, thanks. Have a great day.
